« The Amazing Caucasoids! | Main | Rapture: 2011? »

04/05/2011

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Brad

This is an interesting essay, however, you have overlooked some things. Rahab, of Jericho, married Salmon, an ancester of David. Ruth was a Moabite who married Obed, another of David's ancesters. Solomon had 700 wives who were princesses of the nations around. Reoboam was the son of an Ammonite woman. What the king does, go does his people. Although God forbade intermarriage, the Iraelites did not obey. Both the Northern nation of Israel and the nation of Judaeu were mixed with the nations around them. I do not believe the Jews are anything but a religion today. They have not ever been a race. Even Judah, the son of Jacob, had children with a Cannonite woman and Joseph was married to an Egyptian. The Israelists were a nation, not a race. God never said he would build a race, He said he would build a nation. Of course, you are correct that the Jews today are predominately not decended from Abraham. The Arabs have a better claim to the country of Isr ael than the Jews since they are decendents of Abraham through Ishmael. Also, in the nation of Judeau, there were three tribes. You ommitted the tribe of Levi who were the priests serving at the temple.

-- REPLY -------------------------------------------------

Hello again, and thank you for your comments! The arguments you have offered to support the idea that the Israelite genetic makeup includes multiple races (as well as the lineage of cursed peoples) are common ones, and have been addressed in THEKINGDOMNOW.ORG blogs. Nevertheless, let's take the time to address them individually:


>> Rahab, of Jericho, married Salmon, an ancester of David. Ruth was a Moabite who married Obed, another of David's ancesters.

Ruth and Rahab were dealt with specifically in my message "Ruth and Rahab"

(http://thekingdomnow.typepad.com/thekingdomnoworg/2011/04/ruth-and-rahab.html)

Here are the highlights: Neither of these marriages were interacial. Ruth was not of another race than Obed, and Rahab was not of another race than Salmon. The Rahab of Joshua Chapter 2 was not necessarily racially a Canaanite because she lived in Jerico (ie: today, a Texan is not necessarily a White person). Besides, the Canaanites were not from a different race than the Israelites; they were from a forbidden lineage. If the Rahab of Joshua 2 is the same Rahab of Matthew 1, Rahab certainly was not of a forbidden lineage, because marriage between and Israelite and a person of a forbidden lineage is forbidden
(Deuteronomy 7).

Preterists who are convinced that Israel is comprised of multiple races and forbidden lines must deal with the words of the prophet Zechariah:

Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts. (Zech 14:21)

It cannot both be true that our Savior is from a curse line of people AND be the Perfect Lamb! See also Deuteronomy 17:15.

There is nothing in the Bible that would indicate that Ruth was not of the same race as Naomi. In fact, the opposite is true: Ruth could not lay claim to the land if she were a racial Mohabite (Deuteronomy 21 and Numbers 27). Moreover, Boaz could not have lawfully redeemed Ruth unless he was a racial kinsmen (Deuteronomy 25). Indeed, Ruth 3:9-13 specifically says that Boaz was a close racial kinsmen. If Boaz was from the line of Jacob/Israel, then so was Ruth!

It amazes me that so many folks so readily accept the idea that Ruth and Rahab somehow changed the rules: the seed Israel was to remain pure in their inheritance.

>Solomon had 700 wives who were princesses of the nations around

If Solomon were to have sexual relations with these women, the offspring were not to be counted among Israel. We all know how Solomon's failure here contributed to the split in Israel, the wars, and the disinheritance. Why, then, do we appeal to his weakness to support an idea that his actions were somehow acceptable?

>>Reoboam was the son of an Ammonite woman.

We find that Rehoboam was the "son of an Ammorite woman" in the 1 Kings 14:31. We also find that, being the son of Solomon, he was counted among the tribe of Judah. Therefore, his mother Naamah was called an "Ammonitess" not because she was of that line, but because she had lived among those people that were historically conquered.
The Ammonites were not of a different race than the Israelites, so this wasn't the issue. The issue with the Ammonites were that they were of a forbidden lineage. In Ezra Chapter 9 and 10 we read how Ezra was so distressed about there being Ammonites (and other forbidden peoples) among the returning Judahites that he separated them in horror and repentance. What changed between the time of Ezra and the time of Rehoboam? How could Rehoboam be counted among Israel if his mother were from a forbidden lineage?

I addressed this and several other related objections in Interracial Marriage:

http://thekingdomnow.typepad.com/thekingdomnoworg/2011/04/interacial-marriage.html#more

>> What the king does, go does his people

Indeed, that was the problem! How did Yahweh deal with this problem? Through intervention and Judgment.

>>Although God forbade intermarriage, the Iraelites did not obey.

This is surely biblically and historically true.

>>Both the Northern nation of Israel and the nation of Judaeu were mixed with the nations around them

If by "nations" you mean "races" then we must be able to find that those races were ever Covenantally included in the promises give to Israel. In the Hebrew Bible, you will never find it!

>> I do not believe the Jews are anything but a religion today.

This is certainly true! Their name is left as a curse, and they demonstrably are a mixed people with a Turkic/Mongolic racial heritage.

>>They have not ever been a race.

They most certainly were of a singular race: the race of Adam/Seth/Abraham/Isaac/Jacob, preserved as promised by their God, and as prophesied by the prophets! Our God does not change His mind, and the prophets do not prophesy falsely!

>>Even Judah, the son of Jacob, had children with a Cannonite woman and Joseph was married to an Egyptian.

And don't forget Moses being married to an Ethopian (Black) woman! In our modern mindset, we so easily forget that the dominant, ruling class among the Cannonites, Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians and even Ethiopia were of the line of Adamic people.

We must honor the fact that Yahweh specifically forbade the intermarriage between the Covenant people and those of other races. I would refer you to this Q/A answer on miscagenation, which addresses your argument entirely:

http://thekingdomnow.typepad.com/q_a/2011/04/q-do-you-believe-that-white-and-black-people-should-not-mix.html

>> The Israelists were a nation, not a race. God never said he would build a race, He said he would build a nation.

This is fundamentally untrue. I address this flawed idea in detail in the following link:

http://thekingdomnow.typepad.com/q_a/2011/04/q-wasnt-israel-always-a-mixed-multitude.html

There is no kind way to say this: we MUST be able to demonstrate, in the Inspired Word, that what we believe is true. You will not find anywhere in the Bible that the promise was that the Covenant people were to become a nation; they were to become MANY NATIONS.

You will not find anywhere in the Bible were Yahweh changed His mind, and released Israel from their obligation to obey His Holy, unchangeable Commandments and Statutes. Among those Commandments and Satutes was the requirement to be racially pure. We find only confirmation that Israel did just that (ie: Nehemiah 13:3 and Ezra 9:12). Can you find a passage anywhere that indicates that God released His people from this requirment, or that their inheritance was not contingent upon this element of obedience to His unchanging and eternal Law?

>> The Arabs have a better claim to the country of Isr ael than the Jews since they are decendents of Abraham through Ishmael.

Certainly, today's Arabs may have as much (or more) of the blood of Abraham in them than today's Askenazi Jews. However, their intermixing through the centuries is evidenced in their appearace, customs and faiths.

Thanks again for your comments!

For His Kingdom,
-Brad

Brad


Thank you for your comment on The Problem With Preterists!

The Inspired Word does, indeed, teach that there is no salvation outside the salvation of Israel. As Jack Scott has correctly pointed out: "Until Israel gets theirs, we don't get ours". This has corollary implications that I believe is often missed in Preterism with regard to our personal salvation:

-As Israel is required to be obedient, so are we. This means that we are to obey the eternal Commandments and Statutes of our sovereign God.

- Our abundance and prosperity - the blessings here on earth - is tied to our obedience

- Judgment upon us - the curses here on earth - is tied to our disobedience

This is not generally taught in mainstream Christianity, which attempts to spiritualize Israel, the Bride. Simply put: in order to extend the covenant promises given exclusively to a specific people to all peoples, the Covenant people must be redefined! Tragically, this is what prominant Preterist teachers have done.

On one hand, Preterists acknowledge that the prophecies given to Israel by her prophets were specific to them. It was their Holy City and their Kingdom. On the other hand, they also teach that the prophecies were applicable to all peoples, and the Holy City and the Kingdom are in all peoples of His Creation. My unanswered question to them remains: what is the process as detailed in the Bible where this happened?

The target and scope of the Gospel message is consequently changed from the literal, physical descendants of Jacob/Israel in the lands wherein they dwell, to any believing person of any ethnicity anywhere. This is where the solution (and our precious hope) is lost.

The solution - our salvation - lies both in our literal descendency to Jacob/Israel, and our conversion through the Precious Blood of the slain Lamb. It is thus the remant of Israel today that comprise the Covenant people today, who - in their continuing role as chiefs and priests - are responsible for implementing the Kingdom today. Our salvation and reward is in our Role.

If I understand you correctly, you may be trying to harmonize the "all Israel will be saved" (the composite salvation of Israel) to today, your personal salvation and your place in the Kingdom. I would submit these thoughts for you:

- All Israel (both houses, and all the tribes) have been reconciled to their God. If they have not be reconciled to their God, we have no redemption today, Yahweh does not tabernacle in us, and death has not been defeated. Praise His Name: it is completed!

- The Kingdom belongs to Israel - not all peoples. If you are of the remnant, then you are certainly not only part of the Kingdom, but your consuming role is - in your serventhood - to grow His government here on earth as it is in Heaven. In this way, all His Creation will be blessed.

You may want to check out the "Covenant People" and "Kingdom" categories. May our Lord bless you in your studies!

For His Kingdom,
-Brad

N Hall

I read your comments on The Problem with Preterists with interest. I have always agreed that the term Jew is often misused. However, I reached the end without a solution. If I understand you correctly, you are saying those who are not decended from Abraham cannot be saved until all Isreal has been saved. I didn't see a way for me to be a part of the kingdom that I believe I am a part of. Would you clarify this?

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Your Information

(Name and email address are required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

January 2017

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30 31        

Powered by FeedBurner